tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post6501344755587339611..comments2024-03-26T12:05:16.393+00:00Comments on Are You Tasting the Pith?: Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?*ZakAveryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01794154105596597019noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-15473515510548271222011-09-22T15:51:12.265+01:002011-09-22T15:51:12.265+01:00Well that's true, but of course the big concer...Well that's true, but of course the big concerns can also issue craft-style beers if they wish to by using folksy names, trade styles having the flavour of a local business, and so forth.<br /><br />It's all valid for the market though and people will decide for themselves what they really like.<br /><br />At the end of the day, it's probably more an emotive decision whether to stand uniquely behind real beer as CAMRA has done, than anything else. I recognize too there is a generational aspect to it. CAMRA will need to make ongoing efforts to appeal to current and future generations for whom consumer movements don't have the excitement they did in the 1970's. It's actually remarkable that CAMRA is still going strong, considering all the changes in the world and beer since the 70's, but that attests to the special quality of their cause I think, it still resonates with thousands of people.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-28943563726941520122011-09-22T13:11:44.348+01:002011-09-22T13:11:44.348+01:00Some really good points here around what constitut...Some really good points here around what constitutes 'real ale'. The downside to a very clear, specific definition of what you're campaigning for is that it's easy for breweries (especially big ones) to game the system, i.e. by producing something cheap and bland which, nonetheless, technically meets the criteria for being 'real'. Hence the huge trade stands for some pretty mediocre beers at the last GBBF I attended, I guess.Baileyhttp://boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-83179120879302713602011-09-22T02:18:36.447+01:002011-09-22T02:18:36.447+01:00Without wishing to attract too much flak, I will j...Without wishing to attract too much flak, I will just point out that some ales are clearly more Real than others. Two notorious ones, Courage Best and Doombar are really only just cask conditioned. Talk to any landlord who stocks them and he will tell you that these two are basically bright beers. There is so little yeast remaining in the cask, that they will clear in a matter of hours, and can be ready to drink less than 8 hours after being delivered and dropped into the cellar. If John Smooth was put in a cask, I cannot imagine it acting much differently to some low quality cask ales.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-64909005062209453612011-09-22T01:13:14.506+01:002011-09-22T01:13:14.506+01:00I take the distinction John made, but if gas is in...I take the distinction John made, but if gas is inserted in the container to push out the beer, as I understand the smooth flow process does, of course it wouldn't meet the CAMRA requirement even if the beer conditioned in a cask. And I know John would agree with that, which perhaps argues to return to the usage of the term real ale, which is starting to have a period ring.<br /><br />Zak, your point is well-argued but I would argue in turn there is a difference: in the real ale world, there is a core definition which is widely accepted. In the non-real ale world, it is much more difficult. You get into questions of size of brewery, all malt vs. malt-plus-adjunct, pasteurization or no, hop pellets or whole leaf, it just doesn't end. It is easier, despite some admitted difficulties, to plump for - define in a word - real ale. Added to which it tastes superb and is something closely associated with English brewing history.<br /><br />Anyway, excellent discussion!<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-63901383413498261302011-09-22T00:14:54.860+01:002011-09-22T00:14:54.860+01:00Zakm - mischievous but not I think entirely inacc...Zakm - mischievous but not I think entirely inaccurate.<br /><br />Just noticed how particularly poor my typing was in that last post. Blame the Imperial Stout (which really was very good indeed - I must try and pick some more up this weekend)<br /><br />John ClarkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-40404526716937258152011-09-21T23:27:47.124+01:002011-09-21T23:27:47.124+01:00Thanks everyone for the comments - this post reall...Thanks everyone for the comments - this post really has taken on a life of its own!<br /><br />John - thanks for clarifying that. I wonder how many CAMRA members would understand that distinction, let alone think of it for themselves?<br /><br />Further to that, would it be hideously mischievous of me to draw everyone's attention back to the original point - the difficulty of defining exactly what constitutes good beer and/or craft beer - and then suggest that given the debate here over what constitutes real ale and/or cask-conditioned beer, CAMRA have the upper hand only on the basis of having 40 years on any new pretenders?Zak Averyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650929798289995172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-68285079559338546972011-09-21T21:45:24.603+01:002011-09-21T21:45:24.603+01:00Zak - sorry I've not got back (101 things to d...Zak - sorry I've not got back (101 things to do before I go to Netherlans tomorrow - just had rather fine De Schans Imperial Stout to get in the mood, but I digress).<br /><br />Cask conditioned beer does what it says. It is beer that undergoes a secondary fermaentation in the cask. You knew that of course. Real Ale is the same beer dispensed from that cask without the aid of extraneous gas (usally but not always CO2). Real ale can also come in bottle. You knew that as well. Thus some beer can cask condition but it dispensed in such a way that it is not "real ale" at the point of service - for example the sort lived fad for "real smooth". <br /><br />John ClarkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-14690791850557603842011-09-21T20:39:42.871+01:002011-09-21T20:39:42.871+01:00I've been reading online about cask ale produc...I've been reading online about cask ale production and it appears there are different practices amongst brewers. Some skim off the yeast after primary fermentation, obviously using some kind of mechanical device which I knew hence my reference to Unions. Another way this is done is straight from the open tank where the yeast is skimmed off. <br /><br />This beer is then racked into casks and finings are used to get an optimum ("bright") clarity. <br /><br />This is the kind of production I was thinking of. <br /><br />A further way to produce cask beer is to filter out the yeast with a centrifuge, tank it and then re-yeast in the tank with sugar sometimes added. The beer is racked in casks and again sent with finings to the publicans' cellars.<br /><br />This latter way is maybe what was alluded to in one of comments above. My understanding is a centrifuging is a rough filtration, but I won't argue the point since fresh yeast is added, and clearly this is a variation from the first and (I believe) older practice mentioned above.<br /><br />This latter way to do it sounds to me like the cask equivalent of what I understand some brewers do who bottle ale with its yeast: i.e., they filter it first and then re-seed it with yeast.<br /><br />But it's still real beer because it finishes its maturation in the container it is drawn from. That is the key thing for the real ale devotee, this one at any rate! But it is good to know the different ways it is done and I am glad to be able to clarify my earlier comment about mechanical filtration via the above.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-76035707525722798912011-09-21T19:42:54.860+01:002011-09-21T19:42:54.860+01:00I find that a lot Alan. (-;I find that a lot Alan. (-;Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-4280305387048674732011-09-21T18:02:12.425+01:002011-09-21T18:02:12.425+01:00You can't stop me from liking you, Tandy.
Al...You can't stop me from liking you, Tandy. <br /><br />Alan<br />XOXOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-80531299450148114292011-09-21T17:36:18.803+01:002011-09-21T17:36:18.803+01:00"My comments are directed simply to the desir..."My comments are directed simply to the desirability of CAMRA continuing to exist as a single-focus entity. This will keep real ale in the limelight, and of course it will tend to improve its quality both inherently and as served at the pub due to CAMRA's campaigning activities (Good Beer Guide, its monthly newspaper focusing on breweries and traditional practices, etc.)"<br /><br />That sounds about right. Me too. I too wish these new organisations well, but as I said in my piece,there are good reasons why they are unlikely to succeed overall.<br /><br />And Alan - Next time you fancy expounding your arguments within your framework - you write the piece. Please don't expect me to do it your way and then have a go when I don't. Cut out the middleman. (-;Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-80045596596731608202011-09-21T16:32:23.175+01:002011-09-21T16:32:23.175+01:00On the point of filtering, I have always understoo...On the point of filtering, I have always understood that real ale, to ensure secondary maturation in the cask, is not filtered of its yeast via a mechanical filtration or centrifuge process, but rather comes clear in the glass due to finings being added to the cask, or in some cases by the yeast being allowed to drop to the bottom by gravity (i.e., naturally but it often takes time). I think all beer is separated from its yeast at the brewery to stop active fermentation, e.g., by the Unions system classically in Burton, but apart from that I would have thought beer is not further filtered for cask service. But if I am wrong I am grateful for all further information.<br /><br />Cask ale can be poor or indifferent in quality, certainly. Some big brewery bitter was insipid for example. But a lot of it was superlative (Courage's beers, say, or Guinness Extra Stout when it was bottle-conditioned).<br /><br />Apart from this, there was and is the difficult problem of ensuring a well-served pint. <br /><br />For these reasons, I would be the last to say real ale should be the only thing to drink or the only subject of all beer promotion groups. This is why I gave these newer organizations my good wishes.<br /><br />My comments are directed simply to the desirability of CAMRA continuing to exist as a single-focus entity. This will keep real ale in the limelight, and of course it will tend to improve its quality both inherently and as served at the pub due to CAMRA's campaigning activities (Good Beer Guide, its monthly newspaper focusing on breweries and traditional practices, etc.).<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-32253433941540045882011-09-21T16:25:16.973+01:002011-09-21T16:25:16.973+01:00True, BN. Some once found fern ale good. Maybe the...True, BN. Some once found <a href="http://beerblog.genx40.com/archive/2011/september/ohforamugofern" rel="nofollow">fern ale</a> good. Maybe the pursuit of "goodness" or "reality" or "craftiness" is all a side show. Maybe there is something so old and elemental about beer (amongst we of the beer making cultures) that debating or even searching for objective "better" is a bit silly or at least co-existent with the comforting pleasure it brings. A man's dog may be ugly and smelly but he still truly loves it. Beer is best because it is beer. Full stop.<br /><br />AlanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-12326084524324294742011-09-21T16:20:36.680+01:002011-09-21T16:20:36.680+01:00@Gary Gillman
"It is beer not mechanically f...@Gary Gillman<br /><br />"It is beer not mechanically filtered"<br /><br />It was my understanding that many large and respected brewers of real ale (and brewdog) do mechanically filter their beer. Sharps, Greene King and Thornbridge being a few. I can't really refute the latter half of your post as it is made up more of personal opinion than fact.<br /><br />Like Zak I would also like to know how Real Ale is defined beyond that it is conditioned in the vessel that it is served from, minus 'extraneous gas'.Matt Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-83803228662176986632011-09-21T16:11:20.988+01:002011-09-21T16:11:20.988+01:00The problem lies in the collective identification ...The problem lies in the collective identification of the good in order to have a collective pursuit thereof.<br /><br />Several (most, possibly?) of the EBCU members simply regard <b>beer</b> as the good, and seek to promote beer culture and the joy of beer in all its forms. Which specific beers the members choose to drink is entirely up to the individual members, but their central point is: Beer Is Best.<br /><br />I think that works rather well as a slogan.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-41816341286301505252011-09-21T16:05:39.031+01:002011-09-21T16:05:39.031+01:00Granted for present purposes - but the point is st...Granted for present purposes - but the point is still valid. Not exploring vested interest in framing an argument is <a href="http://thebeerboy.blogspot.com/2011/09/quis-custodiet-ipsos-custodes.html?showComment=1316006650995#c6693559096093167057" rel="nofollow">mind numbingly circular</a> and misses / deflects the more interesting point that it is better to pursue the good than limit oneself to any one characterization of it, no matter how loudly it is proclaimed.<br /><br />AlanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-88264719426413863532011-09-21T15:49:01.961+01:002011-09-21T15:49:01.961+01:00Alan, you clearly started it.Alan, you clearly started it.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-80442360522430639052011-09-21T15:15:36.200+01:002011-09-21T15:15:36.200+01:00At the risk of receiving further obscenity aimed m...At the risk of receiving further <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/tandleman/status/116485043655950336" rel="nofollow">obscenity</a> aimed my way, isn't the problem the assumption that CAMRA is directly relevant to the discussion? The protection of cask ale is a valuable thing but, like the view of the 100 mile diet locavore, is defined by factors other than what is good. Living on an international border, you become aware that what gets included in the diet suddenly is defined by nationalism, too, flavoured by certain slants on what constituted heritage.<br /><br />I am quite happy to accept Gary and TM's views of their beloved. Cask ale is very fine when it is good. But it is not more always good than is food from nearby. Isn't the stripping away of irrelevancies and tangents in the pursuit of the good one of the points of the pursuit of the good? <br /><br /><a href="http://beerblog.genx40.com/" rel="nofollow">Alan</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-76758412624329430832011-09-21T13:40:56.648+01:002011-09-21T13:40:56.648+01:00I hasten to correct: when describing craft beer as...I hasten to correct: when describing craft beer as understood in North America, I meant of course to say that it is rarely pasteurized (not unpasteurized). Cask beer of course in England or North America is not pasteurized.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-31137674797619140392011-09-21T13:38:04.646+01:002011-09-21T13:38:04.646+01:00Cask-conditioned ale is not just a mode of dispens...Cask-conditioned ale is not just a mode of dispense, if we are to look at it technically. It is beer not mechanically filtered, but generally fined before service, allowed to complete its maturation in the container from which it is served without extraneous pressure added to force out the beer. The dispense can vary for real beer: generally it is by a suction handpump system, invented circa-1800. Real beer can also be dispensed by thumb-taps straight from the cask on a stillage. It can also be drawn by electric metered pump from the barrel, this being not usual today I believe.<br /><br />The key to it is the pub-conditioning, as opposed to brewery conditioning and filtering. Craft beer as understood in North America usually is the latter type with the beer too rarely being unpasteurized.<br /><br />It is true that you can cask-condition any kind of beer e.g., pale ale, mild ale, porter, barley wine, even lager (of which it amounts to the last stage of lagering, essentially).<br /><br />But in my opinion, English real ale meant more than how the beer completed its maturation and was drawn from the cask. It meant, and still does in my opinion again, pale ale, some mild ale, some strong ale, and porter when available, made in the English way. This meant, using primarily English ingredients and lending therefore a characteristic English taste, diverse as it was, and is. Can real ale encompass a pale ale made with Cascade hops? Yes, for sure. Will the palette of ale flavours evolve as these beers come in? Yes. Will CAMRA stand for that type of real ale too? Of course, since it doesn't get into the fine details of hop and malt types. But what I am saying is, the real ale which CAMRA took a stand for in the 1970's had a definite image and more than that, a quality as compared to lager, and keg beer as it was in 1970. It still retains that special quality today because most of the non-real beer in England today is still lager and mass produced keg beer ( e.g., the nitro-dispense types). True, North American-style craft beer is now available in parts of England. I am glad for it since this kind of beer can be excellent. <br /><br />But real ale still is fundamentally different in its nature for me anyway. It is usually much less fizzy and has a "live" quality not as apparent even in top-grade brewery-conditioned beer. The taste difference is quite apparent usually. And so we need CAMRA to keep the flag flying for real ale and (I would hope) the range of English tastes which has characterized real ale for 100 years and probably much longer. This "English" aspect can't be a formal part of its remit, I understand that. All I am saying is, when CAMRA members talk to publicans and brewers, I would hope they will say to them, make beers with new tastes available by all means but don't give up please on the classic tastes, primarily in pale ale but also mild and some other types, which were the glory of English ale when CAMRA was founded. Keep that constellation of flavours going in other words.<br /><br />GaryGary Gillmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-48220670759575245642011-09-21T13:30:23.004+01:002011-09-21T13:30:23.004+01:00I just commented on Tandlemans blog this as well. ...I just commented on Tandlemans blog this as well. What exactly is CAMRA's stance regarding keg beer, cask beer, bottled beer, and craft beer. It has occurred to me that I don't know and cannot easily find their actualy policy regarding these things. Their website doesn't have a clear link to their explicit aims and policies. Not that I could find, anyhow.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-67981790236015356932011-09-21T13:13:36.179+01:002011-09-21T13:13:36.179+01:00Is it not true that there are more micro breweries...Is it not true that there are more micro breweries producing good ale than any time since the war ? There are certainly more micro breweries opening up each year than closing down. I think CAMRA still has an important role to play, but in my opinion, these days it is pubs that need saving more than cask ale.<br /><br />As far as I understand, Real Ale (as it is a given name to a product I believe it is correct to capitalise it, but I failed my English O level,) can be either bottle conditioned or cask conditioned. Given that glass and aluminium (or more recently plastic) are chosen for their inert properties regarding beer, the end product ought to be identical whether it is in a cask or bottle. Of course the difference comes from the amount of time that cask ale has to breathe and mature, and I assume that brewers change their recipes accordingly. <br /><br />I may of course be horribly wrong about this.Saga Of Nailshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891668833405154713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-21706986980450814882011-09-21T12:54:50.863+01:002011-09-21T12:54:50.863+01:00Zak - It's all ham Mate! (-;Zak - It's all ham Mate! (-;Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-39406017722340242572011-09-21T12:28:23.327+01:002011-09-21T12:28:23.327+01:00Curmudgeon - those are the facts, and they're ...Curmudgeon - those are the facts, and they're hard to argue with. But isn't it more a case of market share?<br /><br />Tandleman - being a big fan of jamon, I'm not really sure I follow that logic. There's the beer that's brewed, and then there's the beer that is dispensed in pubs - those are two different things, surely, otherwise what's the point of having a campaign for real ale? Which brings me to...<br /><br />John - I'm clearly going to make a laughing stock of myself for this, but maybe you could explain the difference between cask-conditioned beer and real ale for me? Are you talking about cask priming and the like?Zak Averyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650929798289995172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-72277889156220824.post-26012405244413550412011-09-21T09:30:53.350+01:002011-09-21T09:30:53.350+01:00thebeermonkey:
We regularly feature news and artic...thebeermonkey:<br />We regularly feature news and articles about Lovibonds and The Cotswold Brewery in our CAMRA branch newsletter The Oxford Drinker which I edit.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02955324344461651393noreply@blogger.com