Just as a follow up to yesterday's post, I thought I'd publish the exchange of emails between me and Rupert Ponsonby (pictured right). Rupert is a smashing geezer - he's "the ideas man" at R&R Teamwork, the specialist drinks PR company, and has done more than anyone else in recent years to promote beer in the UK.
Yes, it's lazy blogging. Yes, there's a lot to read. But there are also some interesting points.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Ponsonby
To: Zak Avery
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: Zak Avery -on the Rocks
Eyup, Thou Conservative (but obviously not very liberal) beer man
The proof of the pudding is in the eating..
We tried the Liefmans Fruit over ice last week with 13 people and it were great and novel and beautiful. Even one (a wine writer) who said it tasted too unserious at the start, went away with some in her handbag; and over ice it was the most requested beer of the day against (say) 10 others.
I thought you used to say that the (potential) customer was always right? They were my customers.
Today, in the office we drank Lindemans Framboise over ice. Interestingly, to our thinking, the ice allows the flavours of the fruits in the beer to open out and make an exhibition of themselves far better over ice than just chilled. Maybe it is the same as happens when you pour a smidgeon of water into a 40% whisky – it lets the drink relax and open out.
And I drank it again after 15 minutes on ice, and it was still succulent and enticing.
So what is so wrong about opening up a new chapter for beer, adding colour and theatre and arguably – a new range of flavours. Isn’t it about time that we had more fun in beer and allowed others into our territory?
It looked delicious and tasted not half bad - you old conservative you
Love and kisses
Rup
From my Old Labour soapbox
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From: Zak Avery
Sent: 12 May 2010 17:23
To: Rupert Ponsonby
Subject: Re: Zak Avery -on the Rocks
Haha, enough of the political goading! As you well know, I'm a radical liberal to the core.
I don't doubt a word of what you say - it's just the serve that bothers me, although maybe it's also tied up with the new beer, the calorific info, and the changes that DM made to the brewery's output.
Maybe we are arguing semantics - how far removed from beer can beer be before it isn't really beer? Is there any difference between a malt-based fruit beverage and a beer? Maybe it's the disconnect between stressing the "traditional" aspect of the beer and the saccharine flavours - certainly in the one I tried, the saccharine was unpleasantly prominent. Should we be educating the drinkers up to a certain level, or dumbing the beers down?
And anyway, I'm not sure that I say anything positive or negative about it - the question I ask in my blog post is "Should anything and everything be acceptable in the quest to get more people drinking beer, or is there a line that can be easily drawn, that we can point to and say "No, THAT is too far"? And which side of the line does this fall?"
Why not leave a comment? Or can I cut and past your email?
Big love
Z x
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From: Rupert Ponsonby
To: Zak Avery
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: Zak Avery -on the Rocks
Cut n paste my email at your will..
Liefmans Cuvee Brut is their serioso beer and will stay as such. But Liefmans Fruit – tho based on the same trad brown kriek’d beer – is made in very different style. Same parent, but ‘wildly’ different characters and markets
Yup, I think that beer needs to shed its shackles of the past. When I was allowed to help design cask ales for Whitbread in 1994, we added juniper and chocolate and nutmeg and spice. We thought we were being brave and controversial, but looking at historic records it had all been done before.
Who is the most inspirational chef in Britain? Heston B. And does he mind being ‘untraditional’ and trying new flavours? No. His oysters on passion-fruit and lavender jelly with a Belgian Wit beer was one of the best dishes I have ever eaten; followed by Michel Roux’s rare seared tuna with chill, ginger, black pepper and sesame oil with Liefmans Cuvee Brut (how wicked?); and Heston’s roast belly pork with Innis & Gunn Oak aged Beer.
Anyway, try Liefmans Fruit by its lonesome over ice; and then with chilled blackcurrant cheesecake (Tesco) or cold choc mousse
Mmm, The Future’s Fruity – or was it Orange?
Rup
Have you perused www.beergenie.co.uk – our new untraditional baby
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From: Zak Avery
Sent: 12 May 2010 19:01
To: Rupert Ponsonby
Subject: Re: Zak Avery -on the Rocks
I agree with everything you say, except that I'm unconvinced that serving a sweetened fruit beer over ice is anything like as innovative as Heston. In terms of completely rethinking ingredients and processes, Thornbridge are taking that sort of approach to the EXTREME, with beers that incorporate herbs, spices, fruit, fairies wings and hummingbirds tears.
Setting aside the PR issues for a moment, I guess the real question is: How much of a compromise will you make to get people to drink beer? Can we talk people up to appreciating good beer, or do we need to take beer down a few notches first? With a decade of retail experience under my belt, and plenty of converts to good beer, I favour the the former. Maybe our goals and MOs are slightly different?
I like Beer Genie - it's worth it for the beer and BBQ tips alone.
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From: Rupert Ponsonby
To: Zak Avery
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 7:10 PM
Subject: Zak Avery -on the Rocks
Yup
Not equating beer over ice to Heston; just equating to doing the unconventional
I agree with you in talking/learning up and not dumbing down
But ice is theatre, exciting, makes the senses quiver
and is nearly free
True Yorkshire
Surely
Rup
interesting debate, however I cant see serving a highly sweetened fruit beer over ice as being progressive. While I'm sure Rupert is as good a bloke as you say it does seem to be the classic sort of line taken by PR & Marketers.
ReplyDeleteKieran - you're right of course, but thinking about it, serving it cold will hide some of the sweetness. It is marketing, no doubt, but maybe it's marketing born of SCIENCE! I think in the interests of justice, I'll have to try it over ice and report back.
ReplyDeleteI also just remembered that I commented on it in this video blog.
Interesing exchange - but i'm not convinced either. Havent tried Beer Genie yet....proof's in the drinking, I guess. Now, where's that Ice...
ReplyDeleteBrewers study hard, work hard in a range of breweries, train their palate, know their raw materials inside out, dedicate themselves to their craft and science. It takes years of sacrifice and endeavour to become good at brewing beer. All that for the impressive aspect of the fruits of his/her endeavours to be the slice of lemon or frozen water added by the part time barman with the winning smile and nice shirt? Fuck off!
ReplyDeleteThe gimmickry of the theatre of dispense and the stooped posturing of the mixologist have nothing to do with taste and everything to do with illusion. You can flog cheap soulless shit with a flick of the wrist or a snazzy lightshow but you’ll never be able to use it to convert people to quality products. The essence of the very best food and drink will always be lost on those who drink with their sense of fashion.
Stuart - it's great to see you mobilise your passion outside of your job and your blog - I feel honoured.
ReplyDeleteHere are the opening couple of paragraphs from my latest Off Licence News column - I take it you are firmly in the former camp:
"There are two schools of thought about how to get non-beer drinkers to drink beer. The first says that we need to educate people about what beer is, why it tastes the way it does, and allow people to make up their own minds about what they like. Malt, hops, water and yeast can be treated in a mind-boggling number of ways to reach the end product – beer. And beer can taste like anything from wet, carbonated air to a glassful of hellfire and damnation. Given that we all have mature palates, and are not frightened of things that taste a little roasted or burnt (think dark chocolate or coffee), or bitter (marmalade, olives, some salad leaves and tonic water), there's no reason why we can't all enjoy a glass of good-quality, full-bodied beer.
The other school of thought says that we need to make as many compromises as necessary in order to get non-beer drinkers to drink beer. If that means adding fruit flavours, fiddling about with how it's served, or using celebrity endorsements to do so, then fine, bring it on – give me Kylie Minogue drinking aerosol Guinness sweetened with condensed milk. Actually, confronted with that image, it's hard not to be seduced by the “anything goes” argument, and up until a few days ago, I was fairly sure which side of the fence I stood. But now I'm not sure."
But just for the avoidance of doubt, we both still agree that Rupert is a great guy, right?
Stuart has got it spot on!
ReplyDeleteI'm more honoured that you are honoured Zak. Rupert is a gentleman and scholar.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of politics and endorsements. The new PM (well one of them at least) has proclaimed Doom Bar as his favourite beer. I'm currrently deciding between the OBE, the nighthood or the peerage.
That is of course night with a K
ReplyDelete